Talk:Boss

We need to separate "minor" and "major" bosses. Not sure if the game has any terminology for it, but the icon backgrounds and auras do differ. - Dashiva 14:49, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you have screenshots of the two different auras and backgrounds? I have screenshots of these "Bosses":
 * Tizzik Gi - in Bootcamp
 * The Dissector - in Bootcamp
 * The Collector - in Bootcamp
 * Karem Zul - in Bootcamp
 * Outpost Commander Rogers
 * Thrax Overseer Rankash
 * Thrax Overseer Graal
 * Fithik Hive Monarch
 * Proctor Fulgor
 * Thrax Overseer Rankash
 * Thrax Overseer Phlegg
 * Thrax Overseer Glognar
 * Thrax Rifleman - in Crater Lake Research Facility
 * Hominis Machina Lt. Casper - in Crater Lake Research Facility
 * Overseer Tyryd
 * Atropos
 * Clotho
 * Lachesis
 * Thrax Footsoldier - in Pravus Research Facility
 * Linker - in Pravus Research Facility
 * Old Scratch
 * Horntail
 * Archfiend
 * Thrax Overseer Skeev
 * They all use the same red background and red aura on their target info window and white auras around their bodies:
 * http://tabularasa.zarevak.net/boss/boss.png
 * AFAIK there are 3 types of target info windows colors:

!Normal !Operation (instance) !Boss
 * http://tabularasa.zarevak.net/boss/normal.png
 * http://tabularasa.zarevak.net/boss/instance.png
 * http://tabularasa.zarevak.net/boss/boss2.png
 * }
 * Personally I would think Thrax Rifleman and Thrax Footsoldier are minor bosses because they are not named and they exist in more copies with the same name. (IIRC there are 3 Thrax Riflemans bosses in Crater Lake Research Facility)
 * → Zarevak 08:06, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * PS: I would like to have some Boss template similar to NPC but combined with enemy to support resistances, immunities, attack type, special attacks and other information
 * I was thinking the terminology was essentially elite vs. boss. Bosses are uniquely named, generally tougher, and usually have the red portrait border and glow. Many are also uniquely colored -- though that often goes for elites as well. Elites are simply tough versions of regular monsters. They have the glow, but they are not unique.
 * I was thinking about getting screens of bosses soon. I've been doing several NPCs and monsters.
 * -- Silarn 08:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * -- Silarn 08:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, we need to get the terminology in place before we can start labeling them. There's having a name, then there's having an aura (and which kind), and there's having flames in the icon. Maybe more. Where do we start? - Dashiva 13:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Heh? I don't understand what you just said. I see three types of monsters: Basic, Operation and Bosses.
 * Basic ones have gray colored target info window and no aura. All normal monsters on battlefields and all normal NPCs are in this category.
 * Operation monsters have orange colored target window without any aura. All normal monster in instances are in this category. (NPCs in Instances are in basic category and use gray background)
 * Bosses have red colored target window with red flames. The monsters themselves have white aura around them. All the monsters in the list I've put up above are in this category. I don't see any graphical difference between bosses on battlefields and in instance. I don't even see any graphical difference between named unique bosses and boss versions of normal enemies (Thrax Rifleman)
 * Is there any other monster category? I don't think so, because Tabula_Rasa_UI_EXPORT.xml doesn't contain any information about other types of target info windows (uiid="TargetInfoWindow").
 * → Zarevak 14:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I was classifying 'minor bosses' as 'elites.' That's all I was saying. I think there is a difference there for several reasons. One of which deals with Magmonix in Mires. Two types of Magmonix exist: Normal ones and bosses/elites. However, the only visible difference between the two is the red portrait border. Visually they are identical, appear in the same places, have the same exact name, and have the same level range. The tougher ones simply have much more health. I can pull screenshots if you want.
 * Another reason I say this is because, in recent updates, the TR team themselves have said that the Thrax Riflemen are not bosses and that they were doing something to change this appearance visually. But this does not change the fact that they are still much tougher versions of Thrax Soldiers and have different coloring.
 * Finally, named boss monsters are almost always tougher than any other 'minor boss.' Generally they are several levels higher than any other monster in a zone and have much greater damage output and health. If anything, the TR team hasn't really come to a cohesive labeling system themselves since there are definite discrepancies.
 * I'll leave the final say up to you guys, however. I'm just pointing out things to help you make decisions.
 * -- Silarn 19:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * From your description the Magmonix issue (normal version and Boss/Elite version) is the same as Thrax Rifleman (exist as Instance version and as Boss/Elite version). This also raises the issue of article names.
 * All Bosses should have their own articles under their names.
 * Normal enemies can have one article with redirects from different versions' names. The article name should be a common name for the whole group (eg.: Quicksilver Magmonix and Sacrificial Magmonix share the Magmonix article (there is no enemy named just Magmonix)).
 * I think it would be best to include the information about Elites into the Normal version article.
 * For now we can decide the Bosses are only the named enemies with white aura around their body and red target info windows.
 * Unnamed bosses should become Elites until proper definition is established by the developers.
 * → Zarevak 01:31, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Just a note from looking into the Armor data files:
 * There are these types of armor (all at level 50, because it looks like base data point):

! Name ! Armor ! Regen
 * align="left"| Shield_Creature_Minion_50 ||align="right"| 150000 ||align="right"| 10%
 * align="left"| Shield_Creature_Thug_50  ||align="right"|  300000 ||align="right"| 20%
 * align="left"| Shield_Creature_Boss_50  ||align="right"|  600000 ||align="right"| 30%
 * align="left"| Shield_Creature_Mega_50  ||align="right"| 1200000 ||align="right"| 40%
 * align="left"| Shield_Instance_Creature_Minion_50 ||align="right"| 225000 ||align="right"|  7%
 * align="left"| Shield_Instance_Creature_Thug_50  ||align="right"|  450000 ||align="right"| 13%
 * align="left"| Shield_Instance_Creature_Boss_50  ||align="right"|  600000 ||align="right"| 30%
 * align="left"| Shield_Instance_Creature_Mega_50  ||align="right"| 1800000 ||align="right"| 27%
 * align="left"| Shield_NPC_50 ||align="right"| 300000 ||align="right"| 100%
 * }
 * From this table it looks like there are 4 types of monsters: Minion, Thug, Boss and Mega (and another 4 versions for instances). Don't know what is Mega, but Elites could be Thugs... But this all could be just bullocks and all monsters could use Shield_NPC_50 armor...
 * → Zarevak 02:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * align="left"| Shield_Instance_Creature_Boss_50  ||align="right"|  600000 ||align="right"| 30%
 * align="left"| Shield_Instance_Creature_Mega_50  ||align="right"| 1800000 ||align="right"| 27%
 * align="left"| Shield_NPC_50 ||align="right"| 300000 ||align="right"| 100%
 * }
 * From this table it looks like there are 4 types of monsters: Minion, Thug, Boss and Mega (and another 4 versions for instances). Don't know what is Mega, but Elites could be Thugs... But this all could be just bullocks and all monsters could use Shield_NPC_50 armor...
 * → Zarevak 02:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * }
 * From this table it looks like there are 4 types of monsters: Minion, Thug, Boss and Mega (and another 4 versions for instances). Don't know what is Mega, but Elites could be Thugs... But this all could be just bullocks and all monsters could use Shield_NPC_50 armor...
 * → Zarevak 02:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Interesting. There could be a 'Mega' in the Kardash Atta Colony. The Queen has an insane amount of health, and I think that monster in particular has taken me longer to kill than anything else to date. It's hard to say. I'm thinking this could be a base point because I'm fairly certain each creature type has its own multiplier that gets factored in. Obviously not all things have exactly that shield value at Lv50.


 * Edit: I just realised, they can't be using Shield_NPC_50 because it has a shield regeneration value of 100%. That would mean the shield is instantly regenerated if they're ever hit -- which makes me think that it's used only for friendly NPCs that would only be attacked by monsters anyway.
 * -- Silarn 02:34, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Good point about the 100% regeneration - it was just example, that the armor names could totally differ from monster types.
 * Just for your curiosity. Each 7 levels the armor value is doubled and the armor values for monsters are defined up to level 60.

! align="center" | Name ! align="center" | Armor
 * Shield_Creature_Mega_01|| ! 9380
 * Shield_Creature_Mega_08|| 18750
 * Shield_Creature_Mega_15|| 37500
 * Shield_Creature_Mega_22|| 75000
 * Shield_Creature_Mega_29|| 150000
 * Shield_Creature_Mega_36|| 300000
 * Shield_Creature_Mega_43|| 600000
 * Shield_Creature_Mega_50||1200000
 * Shield_Creature_Mega_57||2400000
 * Shield_Creature_Mega_60||3230160
 * }
 * → Zarevak 02:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Shield_Creature_Mega_43|| 600000
 * Shield_Creature_Mega_50||1200000
 * Shield_Creature_Mega_57||2400000
 * Shield_Creature_Mega_60||3230160
 * }
 * → Zarevak 02:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Shield_Creature_Mega_60||3230160
 * }
 * → Zarevak 02:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * → Zarevak 02:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Resetting indentation, discussion continues
With regard to the 100% regen I know this is in use, but for friendlies. One example is Explosives Specialist John in Ojasa Atta Hive. Shortly after I entered the instance, he was swarmed by half a dozen atta and stood there taking no visible damage at all. If we ever were unlucky enough to encounter an enemy with this shield class, it might still be possible to take it down with a single hit (e.g. a ultra-power-mega-sniper) as it would be dead before it could regen.

It's nice to know there are formal groups of monsters. What would be even better is if we could extend it to showing there's a formal relationship between some of the shield classes and auras, and backgrounds. I also wonder about to what degree "shield" is armor, health, or both.

So for the naming, we should avoid linking it to these terms for now. However, we still need to decide what "boss" is going to mean. Is the context the power of the monster (regen speed, aura, flames) or is it the relevance of the monster (named, target of a mission, surrounded by minions)?


 * I will just say what I've said before the armor tables:
 * From the user interface perspective we have 3 types of monsters: Normal, Normal in Instances and Bosses
 * From logical perspective we have different 3 types of monsters: Normal, Elites and Bosses (and maybe 4th: Mega)
 * I suggest we use the logical monster designation:
 * Normal are all the basic monsters in battlefields (with gray background) and instances (with orange background)
 * Elite are the unnamed bosses (with red background and using common name)
 * Boss are the named bosses (with red background)
 * Elite is established name for unnamed bosses in other games and until the developers will come up with their naming I don't see a reason not to use it.
 * The question is: is there a conflict with this system? eg.: Some named monster that is not Boss?
 * What do you think about this categorization?
 * → Zarevak 13:16, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I've pondered back and forth, and I just want to get the templates in place.


 * Generic mobiles - Enemy
 * Specific enemy - ?
 * Specific friendly - NPC
 * Specific other - ? (computers and other interaction points)


 * As far as terminology goes, I think I'd prefer to just leave it be for now. Instead, the templates can have a "Flames+Aura yes/no" parameter. These are the properties that matter, we don't really gain anything from attempting to do more detailed classification. - Dashiva (talk) 14:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The Dissector Bootcamp boss is using another template: Creature and there are also critters which shouldn't use Enemy nor NPC.
 * I suggest using:
 * Enemy for all unnamed enemies (even Linker boss/elite in Pravus Research Facility)
 * It should support: name, level, type (bio/mechanical/projections/...), weaknesses, resistances, immunities, damage type, special abilities, faction?, ...
 * Boss for all named enemies
 * It should support: name, level, type, weaknesses, resistances, immunities, attack types, special abilities, base enemy (species), faction, .... and other Enemy parameters
 * Creature for critters (they cannot attack and die in one shot)
 * It should support: name, ???
 * NPC for friendly NPCs - quest givers, vendors, ...
 * It should support: name, level, species, faction, gender, ...
 * ??? for interactive environment (computers, doors, corpses?, ...)
 * ??? for neutral but nontrivial fauna (they are not enemies, but can attack) - Enemy is best fit due to their abilities
 * The current NPC template also supports location parameters. If we leave it in the template it should be also added to the Boss template. There should be some basic information in the general enemy articles as well (eg.: Thrax Technician can be found in Concordia Divide)
 * → Zarevak 14:25, 5 January 2008 (UTC)