User talk:Tetris L

Welcome!
Hello, and welcome to the Tabula Rasa Wiki! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Feel free to fill out your personal user page so we can get to know you. Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~&#126;); this will automatically produce your name and the date.

Please remember that as part of the Tabula Rasa Non-Disclosure Agreement, sharing access to this wiki with anyone else at this time is strictly prohibited. If you know of another beta testing member that wishes to have access, please have them send a private message (PM) to TonyV on the official Tabula Rasa forums.

Again, welcome! TonyV 09:19, 23 June 2007 (EDT)

(I'm putting that on everyone's discussion page as I add user accounts. You can add it by typing the following on their discussion page:

~

E-mail and PNGs
Hey, first of all, did you get my e-mail? I have a few things I want to send to you in a non-public location, and I'd rather communicate with you directly if possible. --TonyV 22:18, 25 June 2007 (EDT)


 * The following section has been moved to TaRapedia talk:Formatting/Images

MissionItem template
Gah, another reason we need forums. If I reply on my page, you probably won't see it, but if I reply on your page, there's not context. :-( I added some notes to the Community Portal talk page, I'll add some more later.
 * Nah, that's how talking works on wikis: When you've posted a message on somebody elses talk page it's your duty to check for replies. I'm used to it. Also, I check the recent changes frequently. So, put the replies where the original question/comment was posted. Don't worry, I'll pick it up. --Tetris L 09:47, 26 June 2007 (EDT)


 * Maybe so, but you're the exception; most folks won't be hitting up the Recent changes page to check for talk pages items, and even for the ones that do, stuff is highly likely to get lost among all of the various edits. There will be lots of things we'll want to get the community involved in, and forums are much more conducive to discussion than wiki talk pages could ever be, and I don't want to use the official forums as ours.  We need somewhere where we can discuss things that specifically relate to the wiki. --TonyV 00:29, 27 June 2007 (EDT)


 * Hmmm ... like I said before: It worked like a charm on GuildWiki. But maybe that was an exception. We'll see how things turn out on TaRapedia. Myself I'll always prefer the talk pages over a forum any time. --Tetris L 03:05, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

Image uploads
Just an FYI; I have the image set for all of the items. As soon as I get some time, I'll upload them. --TonyV 00:29, 27 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Did I understand you correctly: You mean ALL of the items in the game??? Did NCsoft give them to you? Holy crap, that is excellent! I hope I didn't misunderstand you. --Tetris L 03:03, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

ParserFunctions
I've installed ParserFunctions. At some point before the site goes live, I'll install the Spam Blacklist, too. --TonyV 00:33, 27 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Thanks! Oh, and you really don't have to reply on my talk page to questions that I asked on your talk page. Simply reply where the question is. Like I said, if I asked you a question, I'll check back for answers frequently. :) --Tetris L 02:57, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

Mission giver categories
I really don't think we need the mission giver categories, for example, the Dr. Munson mission category). If someone is looking for Dr. Munson's missions, I can't imagine them doing anything but looking up Dr. Munson, and the information in that category is duplicated exactly from the Missions section of his article.  This will only make more work for us, it clutters up the pages, and I really don't see any benefit to it.  Unless you have some objection, I'd like to delete the  template and its entries from all contact articles. --TonyV 12:24, 30 June 2007 (EDT)


 * On one hand you're probably right. These categories probably won't be used much. But on the other hand they don't do any harm. Yes, once the article is finished and complete, the category is a duplicate of the article section. But as long as the article is under construction the category is a help to check for completeness. And it doesn't cause any work what-so-ever, because the category is filled in automatically by the template. (Please note that it's the  template that creates the category entries, not the  template. The latter is just a quick way to link to the category.) --Tetris L 14:51, 30 June 2007 (EDT)

Just from an aesthetic point of view, though, I don't like unnecessary links in articles. Especially in the case of the MissionCategory links. Since there's nothing in the category article, they'll always show up as dead. (Unless, of course, we put something in the mission category article, in which case we'll be creating a lot of extra duplicating work.) I prefer the philosophy of keeping things as clean as possible.

On a side note, I'd like to have at least stub articles for all of the contacts as soon as possible. If we enter a mission's details for a contact article that doesn't exist yet, we should create the contact article, even if the only thing in it is the link to the mission. Over on the Paragon Wiki, we have a template named for precisely this purpose. We should consider having one here, too.

--TonyV 15:18, 30 June 2007 (EDT)


 * I could live with removing the template from contact articles. The dead link doesn't bother me, because I know that only the category description is empty, but not the category entries, which is what is more important. But I can understand where you're coming from, so I don't mind to remove the link.
 * On a side note, it would be pretty easy to fill in all the categories with a bot.
 * Last but not least, stubs are a whole new issue. The concept is well known from Wikipedia, and many other wikis use it too. However, I left it away deliberately because on GuildWiki we did not have the best experience with stubs. When we started, and lots of new articles were created, pretty much everybody put the template on every article. But after a while it was usually forgotten to remove the stub tag, even if the article was well elaborated meanwhile. More than 50% of all articles in GuildWiki still bear a stub tag. That's THOUSANDS of articles. Effectively this makes it impossible to recognize which ones are the articles that actually need work, which renders the whole stub tag concept meaningless and useless. So, IF, and that is a big if, we introduce stubs on TaRapedia, then we should agree about a very strict policy regarding when to apply and when to remove the stub tags, to ensure that the tag actually means something and is helpful. --Tetris L 15:44, 30 June 2007 (EDT)

Images
Okay, here are a few more thoughts and suggestions regarding images.

I think that individually naming images is just plain impractical. Aside from the fact that we'll either end up with duplicate images or some images with grossly misleading names, there's the practical concern that we don't know what all of these images are, likely won't without months of play time, and some of them might not even be in the game yet.

If we wait until we have names for everything, that will effectively prevent us from uploading a ton of item images. Also, it means that someone will have to go through and rename 543 files by hand before they can be used in the wiki. Plus, several of the item images are duplicates; I think they're placeholders that will be changed eventually before the game goes live. I can't imagine this process of discovery and naming taking less time than several months at the least, maybe longer, unless the game is a lot easier at higher levels than I'm giving it credit for.

Instead, what I propose is this. I worked for a long time using several tools and utilities (including the importImages.php script; thanks for the heads-up) to convert, name, and upload the image files. Each one is named Image####.png, where #### is a sequential, zero-padded, four-digit number.

I've also created a template named Item, along with a few templates that basically map item names to image numbers. To use it, simply create an article called Template:Itemref/name, where name is the name of the item. Then to refer to the image, use the template.

For example, I added a template called Template:Itemref/Collector's_Head that contains the number 0313. This is a reference to the Collector's Head item number, which is 0313. Here's how to insert it into an article and what it looks like:



I also created one for Dissector's Head, which also uses the same number (0313). Here's what it looks like. Notice that it's referencing the same image (0313):



It's not an ideal solution, as it means we're still going to have to name everything at some point. However, it does allow us to get all of the images in the wiki now instead of waiting for everything to have a name. It also means that everything's name in the article will match up with what it is. It also means that if there's an image for something which we haven't identified yet, people can find it by browsing the list of Icon images instead of waiting around for us to figure it out.

Like I said, it's not a perfect solution. The ideal situation is that there would be one name per item, and we'd have access to that name. As it is, though, we don't, and this is the best compromise I can come up with.

--TonyV 15:10, 1 July 2007 (EDT)


 * Hmmm ... I'm not 100% happy with the solution, not even 70%, but it'll work. I'm afraight that long term this will cause a lot of confusion, and even additional work. You're right that waiting until we have identified an icon will prevent us from uploading. But on the other hand as long as an icon hasn't been identified there is probably little need for it on the wiki. I'm already able to identify a lot of them. And I think except for loot items there aren't that many with multiple uses.


 * Sigh, I wish MediaWiki would allow the user to rename images. :/


 * Anyway ... I think I'll manage to modify the and various other templates to use the image numbers instead of plain names. Let me think about it. --Tetris L 15:37, 1 July 2007 (EDT)


 * I just sent you an e-mail with a link to the source files. If you want to change stuff around, let me know.  There's also a batch delete script in that directory.  ;-) --TonyV 15:53, 1 July 2007 (EDT)


 * Nevermind, I've already picked up your method, modified the template and started working on creating the Itemref pages. To keep track of the work I've created TaRapedia:Icon reference list. --Tetris L 18:42, 1 July 2007 (EDT)


 * In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have uploaded the Logos icons yet. There pretty much is a one-to-one correspondence there, and they probably would be better named after what they represent.  Grrr...  Let me know if you want to change anything, and I'll try to script something or batch process it.  (Or, of course, feel free to log in via the shell and have at it.)


 * And sorry that some of the missions are out of whack. I'm still trying to figure out if there's a better way to standardize the information while trying to keep a steady stream of information entered.  It's a bit challenging with all the different ways there can be objectives and subobjectives and multiple missions and lots of contacts, briefings, and debriefings.  At some point, I'm hoping we can put together some sort of generic mission template that we can insert using  or something, followed by editing it and inserting all the info, and clean up what I've entered on the fly.


 * I've also worked on getting some more screenshots of the contacts. I've pretty much standardized on 300 pixels by 500 pixels for those pictures, and they look pretty good, if I do say so myself.  :-)  I've also taken a few pictures of the shrines at 500 pixels by 300 pixels.


 * --TonyV 09:06, 2 July 2007 (EDT)


 * Replies:
 * You uploaded the Logos symbols? Where to? I noticed just a handful of them in Category:Icon images.
 * The icon images are still a bit of a mess, but I think we'll be able to code the various templates dealing with icons so flexible that we can handle all cases. I've already linked many of them, and will do more over the next few days.
 * How do you intend to handle icon updates? Currently many items use the standardized box icon. I guess NCsoft will replace all of those with a real icon before the game goes life. With each patch we'll have to check whether any icons have changed and upload them, either overwriting some of the old icons or adding them to the bottom of the list. What's you plan for this?
 * I think generally we should agree on a standardized format before we start to create large amounts of articles, because if we change the format later we'll have to go back and fix all of them. It's better to spend a bit of time upfront than a lot of time later. That goes for missions as well as all other article types.
 * Regarding missions: Some time back I wrote this mission formating guide. Could you please comment on it and/or modify it if you don't like it. If we agree that it's finalized, we can use it for all missions in future.
 * Feel free to go ahead with contact screenshots. They are low in my own priority list, but that shouldn't stop you from working on them.
 * --Tetris L 09:36, 2 July 2007 (EDT)


 * The Logos symbols are all in the Logos symbol images category. The native image size is 51 x 51 pixels.  I've got to go, so I'll have to answer the rest later... --TonyV 11:37, 3 July 2007 (EDT)


 * Urgh ... the logos use a different file name system?! :/ That makes things even more messy. I'll try to code the template such that it can handle both items (incl. classes, skills/abilities) and logos. Also, I'll start to fill in TaRapedia:Logos symbol reference list. --Tetris L 16:05, 4 July 2007 (EDT)


 * Regarding my reply #3: There we go! In today's patch all of the previously missing ability icons have been filled in. Time to update the icon database. Also, some of the item icons have changed. :/ --Tetris L 17:22, 4 July 2007 (EDT)

/loc rounding
Just an FYI while I was working on guides to help newer testers find hard-to-find logos shrines, rounding the /loc numbers to the nearest 5 is plenty accurate for folks to find things. Deciding on a general policy in the wiki to round most /loc's to a certain number may prevent future tabulawikipedians from seeing 406-245-441 as the /loc for a shrine and changing it to 407-245-442 because they were just a step different from whomever published the first /loc. I like 5 because it was easy, but 10 should get most folks in the ballpark. --Clatra 21:02, 8 July 2007 (EDT)


 * I agree that loc coordinates shouldn't be given overly precise. It's kinda stupid that the game displays the coordinates with two decimal places in the first place, because if you move just a fraction of an inch in any direction you'll already have a big change behind the decimal point. So I think it's undisputed that we should omit any decimal places and round at least to full digits. But I think that rounding to 5 or even 10 is not any better than rounding to 1. First of all, I think few people would correct a coordinate because it is off by 1 digit. And those who would correct it, would probably also correct it if it's rounded to 5, because they are not aware of the standard, or because their location was just past the rounding point (2.5 or 5.0 respectively).


 * Having said that, if anybody enters a location rounded to 5 or 10 I will not correct it, as that is well accurate enough, but I think for my own locations I'll stick with rounding to 1. It's not a big deal. -- T ETRIS L 02:28, 9 July 2007 (EDT)


 * I usually round to the nearest 0.5, unless there some compelling reason not to. Sometimes I don't round the y-coordinate, since on level ground it doesn't change. --TonyV 22:31, 9 July 2007 (EDT)


 * Tony, precision higher than integer numbers is really unnecessary. -- T ETRIS L 02:15, 10 July 2007 (EDT)

Yo, Signature?
Hey man, how do I make it so that my signature auto links my user page and all that shit? Do you just do it manually every time? chillinvillain 17:44, 26 July 2007 (EDT)


 * It's in the "User profile" tabe of your Preferences. To get an automatic link, simply leave the "Nickname" field blank and do not tick the "raw signatures" checkbox. That's iirc. Try it. If it doesn't work, shout at me and I'll think again. ;) -- T ETRIS L 17:51, 26 July 2007 (EDT)


 * You da man, thanks tons bro. I was way too tired when i signed up for this site the first time not to notice this stuff ;) CV 17:58, 26 July 2007 (EDT)


 * You can do all kinds of fancy stuff with that field, like adding colors, images, etc. See Wikipedia:Help:Preferences. But please don't over-do it. Infact, many wikians would consider my own signature as "too much". -- T ETRIS L 18:07, 26 July 2007 (EDT)
 * I hear ya, thanks again! ;) CV  18:25, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

Root page edit
Hey, this morning I discovered that you can change the text of the log in page by creating an article named WikiMedia:Loginreqpagetext. By default, it says, "You must log in to view other pages," which isn't very helpful. I have created this page with the text that we used to have on the root page and redirected the root page back to pointing at the wiki. Users will now see the same message, but I think this configuration is a lot better. When the NDA is lifted, we need to edit the LocalSettings.php file so that access is no longer restricted, and delete the WikiMedia:Loginreqpagetext page. --TonyV 12:33, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

IRC Channel
TOR is going to add ##tabularasa to Wikia's CGI, so you guys have an IRC channel. Right now I'm the channel's owner, but, if you register a nick and tell me, I can give you the channel. Thanks! =D -- NOTASTAFF  GPT ( talk )( eating ) 19:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Release ping
Release is upon us and the wiki work goes on. Are you still among us? - Dashiva 00:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, no, I'm not. I did not buy the game, and it doesn't look like I'll do so any time soon. Instead, I'm playing Hellgate London at the moment. Feel free to remove my sysop status on this wiki. --Tetris L 10:51, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

ohai there
Do you remember me from Guildwiki? Same username. Mgrinshpon 17:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, no, the name alone doesn't ring a bell. Maybe the signature image would. Did you use any? --Tetris L 21:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)